The State of Podcasting in 2023 & How We’re Adapting Our Businesses for 2024 With Jenny Suneson
The podcast industry has experienced some drastic shifts in 2023. New tools have changed the way that we work just as the services we offer our clients have continued to evolve.
All this might have you wondering, how can I possibly keep up? How can I ensure my business thrives in an industry that can feel wholly unpredictable from one day to the next?
In today’s episode, I’m chatting with Jenny Suneson, my good friend and fellow podcast agency owner. Jenny and I discuss everything from the impact of AI, to how we’ve overcome resistance to change, to why we’re so optimistic about the future of podcasting (even after a challenging year). If you work in the podcast industry, then listen in to hear how we’re leveraging these important lessons to grow our businesses in 2024.
Start converting your listeners into leads and clients for your business! Grab my FREE Guide to structuring your episodes for sales with our best tips and a guide for solo episodes. Download today to get started!
What’s in this episode…
[05:03] Changes to the podcast industry including the mainstream introduction of AI
[20:29] How we’re adapting our businesses to reflect the changing podcast industry
[26:25] Our predictions and how we envision the future of the podcast industry
Are you ready to build your podcast strategy, simplify your marketing, and finally make your podcast work for you? Join the Strategic Podcast Academy, my signature group program that’ll support you with monthly training, resources, and an amazing community!
About jenny suneson:
Jenny Suneson is a podcast strategist and the founder of the podcast management and marketing agency Savvy Podcast Agency. The Savvy Podcast Agency helps entrepreneurs launch and grow their podcasts and start turning their listeners into leads.
Connect with jenny:
LINKS:
Grab your free Guide to Episodes for Sales
Join the Strategic Podcast Academy!
The Transcript for Share, Strategize, & Shine:
ep 147: The State of Podcasting in 2023 & How We’re Adapting Our Businesses for 2024 With Jenny Suneson
[00:00:35] Caroline Hull: Hi there and welcome to Share, Strategize and Shine. I'm your host, Caroline Hall, a podcast strategist and CEO of Wild Home Podcasting. I've built my entire career through podcasts by sharing my experience using strategic systems and shining a light on the power of podcasting. If you are looking to cultivate leads for your membership group, program or consulting services, I'm here to help you create a holistic and integrative podcast strategy that will let your business thrive. Let's dive in. [00:01:07][31.8]
[00:01:07] Caroline Hull: Hello and welcome back to the Share, Strategise and Shine podcast. Today is a little bit of a different episode. I have been having a lot of conversations about online business, about the state of things, about podcasting in general, and I thought it would be really great to bring that to you. And I had had a talk with another podcast manager and producer who works in the same way that I do in the same field. And we're friends and we've been in each other's sphere for a long time, and we had a whole conversation about it. And when we were down the end of our conversation, I said, You know what? This would make an amazing episode. So I am so excited to basically bring you a conversation with my friend Jenny Suneson. She is a podcast strategist and the founder of the Podcast Management and Marketing Agency, Savvy Podcast Agency. She helps entrepreneurs launch and grow their podcast and start turning their listeners into leads. And if you're going, Hey, Caroline, that sounds pretty similar to what you do. You're absolutely right. We definitely have similar businesses. We also do some things the same and do some things differently. But what we both share is a genuine love for the podcast industry and for podcasting as a whole. And she's someone I really, really enjoy talking to about the industry and podcasting and editing and all of those things because we're just on the same page about so much. So I really hope you enjoy this conversation and enjoy getting a sneak peek into what it has been like as podcast editors living through air, being introduced into our worlds in the way that it has been this year, and then also living through trying to grow our businesses in this weird online business space that has kind of happened this year as well. So it's definitely a peek behind the curtain, honest and raw, and I really hope you enjoy it. Hi, Jenny. Thank you so much for coming on the show. [00:03:23][135.6]
[00:03:24] Jenny Suneson: Hi. Thanks so much for having me. I'm super excited to be here today. [00:03:26][2.1]
[00:03:26] Caroline Hull: Yeah. So for anyone who doesn't know, Jenny and I both are podcast managers, producers. We both work in the industry and we had a conversation a few weeks ago. We've actually been chatting off and on for a couple of months now, just kind of about the state of things with podcasting and our industry specifically. And so I'm just Thank you so much, Jenny, for coming on the show. I know it's kind of funny to have two podcast editors on a show together about podcasting, but, you know, we have known each other for a very long time and been in the same circles, so I'm just glad that we're making this connection. And and I thought it would be such an interesting perspective for people to hear from both of us. So before we dive in now, I want you to just introduce yourselves and talk a little bit about your business and what you do. [00:04:15][48.9]
[00:04:16] Jenny Suneson: Yeah. So I have been managing podcasts since 2018. I started as a VA social media manager and then niche down a couple of years later and fell in love with podcasting. I started my own show and that's kind of what kind of catapulted everything into that. And now we help people start and grow their podcasts, both public and private podcast, and then also pitching and marketing and pretty much full service boutique agency style. So we don't have like a million team members, but we all sort of have just me. So it's been really fun. I love I love podcasting, I love seeing the industry grow. But this year has been particularly interesting just with how many changes that came all at once. So I'm really excited to dive into that with you today. [00:05:03][46.6]
[00:05:03] Caroline Hull: Yeah, you know, it's really funny. I was listening to a podcast this morning as I was driving my kids to school and they were talking about all the changes that have happened in just this year, but they even were talking about the changes that have happened since the pandemic. And I feel like with podcasting, that's been incredibly magnified because everybody started a podcast in 2020 and like, my business was booming, your business was booming. And then this year has been really different. And I think I don't know what you think, Jenny, but I really think that it's because of A.I. and how A.I. has been introduced into our worlds. [00:05:46][42.3]
[00:05:46] Jenny Suneson: Yeah. Yeah, I think. I mean, obviously it wasn't going to be like, crazy booming forever, because obviously, like, people saw that surge, they hopped on it, and if they didn't, then it was, you know, they might be hopping on it now, but it's obviously much slower than it was back in 2020, 20, 20, 2021, even last year, 2022, because I think for me, 2020 to 2020 was like really just crazy years, especially 2020, but like. 21. Would you have continued? And then this year it's kind of slowed down a little bit. And yeah, I definitely feel like I has had some part in it because people see this tool and they're like, Oh, you know what? I can pay this tool like 20, 30, 40 bucks a month and save myself some money versus hiring like a service provider to help me. So. [00:06:33][46.1]
[00:06:33] Caroline Hull: Yeah, I agree with you. And, and I see the appeal like I do like hundred percent. [00:06:37][4.1]
[00:06:38] Jenny Suneson: I mean, I supplement with it, too. Yeah. I'm not gonna pretend like I don't. [00:06:41][2.9]
[00:06:41] Caroline Hull: I know. Like, we we've been using it. We've been cutting costs in other places as well, in favor of AI and in favor of certain tools, too. We've changed. We've actually, like, changed our editing process to incorporate some AI. So, like, I totally get the appeal. There is definitely a part of me when all of this started happening, like I avoided it like the plague. And I think because I could sense that it was going to change what we are doing. And if any of my family members are listening or my good friends, they know that Caroline doesn't like change and doesn't respond. [00:07:17][35.9]
[00:07:18] Jenny Suneson: Well to change. I'm the same way. So yeah. [00:07:20][2.2]
[00:07:20] Caroline Hull: So I avoided it and avoided it. But it really it caught up with us and it felt like it was catching up to our clients as well, especially like our clients. So we have like a pretty high level package. It's not super cheap to work with us because we do a lot of other stuff, but for a while we had a lower tier, a couple of lower tiered packages and I feel like it was really easy for those clients who are on those lower tier packages to just hop off and pick up an AI tool and do it themselves and like, listen, I am not here to like say you shouldn't do that to save money, but you have to also understand that when you make those choices, it does affect the service providers that you work with. And I just don't think I was prepared for that at all. [00:08:07][46.2]
[00:08:07] Jenny Suneson: Yeah, no, I was I was not prepared for people to learn about it as quickly as they did, too, because it seemed like it was introduced in like a month or two later. People were like, oh, you know, hopping on it and not just like chat, because that was everyone was hopping on that, not merely for podcast stuff, but like, you know, like Descript has been around for a while, but like, it got better and better and better, and then people were like, Well, I can do it myself kind of situation. And then now there's like more podcast specific tools that people use. I know I use I use cast magic personally and I do like it. Sometimes it comes up with some funky stuff and like, well, this is hilarious, but I mean, I do like to use it to supplement. I've been using Otter for years for transcripts, so that's like nothing, right? But that didn't really do much for people. People weren't like, Oh, well, now I have this transcript, so I don't need anyone, you know what I mean? Like, that was just a nice addition. [00:09:00][52.9]
[00:09:01] Caroline Hull: Yeah, totally. Yeah. It's funny because I never was like, Oh, we we don't need Descript, We've got editors, we've got show notes, writers listening to that. The episodes. I never saw the need for Descript. We've always used Adobe audition to edit, and my philosophy has always been like, We will listen through to the whole episode. We take our time, all that good stuff. When we finally did incorporate description in the editing process, it was like magical because what. [00:09:27][26.1]
[00:09:27] Jenny Suneson: What have I been doing? [00:09:27][0.0]
[00:09:30] Caroline Hull: I know well we were so limited. We were very limited in that we couldn't content edit as much, You know, we just did editing. Like we didn't really have the time to like decide if your content was in the right order or if a tangent needed to be cut. Like we would make suggestions to clients, but that wasn't like what we specialized in. And for those of you who are listening, who haven't used Descript, what's really cool about Descript is you can actually edit the audio and the video in the transcript, so you can go through the transcript and you can highlight things and actually delete them or move them around. Clearly you have to listened to it as well because it can be very choppy and let's be honest, sometimes it doesn't work. The other day I uploaded an interview and the transcript and the audio were off just a smidge, so every cut I made was not right, so I stopped making cuts. But where it has helped is this content editing piece. And so it's funny because as much as I avoided it, it's actually enhanced what we're able to do as editors. So now we actually go through our podcasts in Descript first and then pull them into Adobe for all the fine tuning. [00:10:35][65.0]
[00:10:36] Jenny Suneson: That's what I've always done too. It's always been like the content editing in Descript and getting rid of like the ums and like the long pauses and stuff like that. And then like really fine tuning the actual audio in another tool that is more specialized. However, Descript has introduced something over the past couple of months. Maybe it's been a little longer than that called Studio Sound, which has been really cool too, because it does make people sound more crisp at the click of a button, which is really, really nice. I mean, some of them like, well, my voice sounds a little weird. Like the other day I was sick and I used it and was like, ooh, I mean, I voice sound strange, but I'm like, I think it's only because I was sick that I just, like, kind of was a little off, but like. For the most part, it does help. Just by the click of a button, then you don't have to like level everyone's track. Yeah, it was really nice. [00:11:18][42.4]
[00:11:19] Caroline Hull: I know we were processing everybody in Isotope have been like using Isotope for years, which is a very fancy audio software, very expensive. When a few years ago when I had like three or four editors on my team, I had to buy a license for each of them for Isotope. Yeah, good times. I'm really glad that I did that. But, you know, that's what we used to use. And, you know, it could do a lot of things and we could do a lot of things with it. But that Studio Sound has been amazing for Zoom audio. I mean, it cleans up Zoom audio like nobody's business. [00:11:52][33.2]
[00:11:52] Jenny Suneson: So, yeah. [00:11:53][0.5]
[00:11:54] Caroline Hull: I really love it for that. So I guess we've kind of become friends with I know you and I, and we're not so much against it. So you've obviously incorporated it into your processes and I have as well. But I guess what I, what I want to ask you is like, is there something that you really love about it or dislike about it when you're working on it, especially for clients? [00:12:19][25.1]
[00:12:20] Jenny Suneson: Yeah, I mean, I like being able, like with Descript, I like being able to do that quick content editing, which would take ten times longer in any other tool. I feel like just because you're editing with the waveform, not the text, So you're like, Yeah, stop and like listen and stop and listen. And where obviously you still have to do that in Descript, at least you can read at first and be like, Okay, cool. And that also makes it easier to sound soundbites and stuff as well because you're like, okay, well, I like this. You can literally read it and then listen and say, Okay, cool, yeah, I like this one. This sounds great. And then, yeah, I like that part of it, obviously. And then, you know, like I loved I've always loved getting the transcript because that helps write the show notes and stuff and pull quotes and things like that. That's always been part of our process for like years because that's nothing new. However, the tool that I use CAS Magic, they have like it's called the Magic Chat or something like that, I don't know. And they do like it does a transcript, but then it does auto titles, which sometimes are good. Sometimes I'm like, This is really wordy. Before we hopped, when I was telling Caroline that in one of the conversations I had recently from my own show, it had generated a title based on something we talked about for literally less than 30 seconds on the show, and it was like she was saying like, Oh, I live in Ohio and it's like always cold and rainy and yucky. And basically and recently, like generated a title about Ohio being gross and cold and rainy and that's hilarious. Yeah, I know. I was like, cracking up when I was reading it. I was like, Yeah, this is definitely not the one. So sometimes it, like, lacks on like titles and things like that. Yeah. And sometimes like the key points, the key points that it gives me are pretty good, but like some of the timestamps aren't really that exciting. Like the timestamp itself is accurate, but the words that it puts there, I'm like, Well, no one's going to be like, Well, that sounds really exciting. Let me scroll to that part of the episode. Yeah, it just kind of like requires a little more thought, but it is nice to have that starting point for me. That's the beauty of AI is you're getting that starting point and then you can kind of go from there. I don't think it's to the point where you can use it fully for show notes or editing or anything else without a human touch. And I don't think it'll be there for a while. [00:14:38][138.5]
[00:14:39] Caroline Hull: And I think that's a really great point you bring up because, you know, part of this conversation that I wanted us to have was about our jobs and what we see for the future of what we do. And I think this is really important for people to understand is like even if you trade in AI for a service provider, you're going to have to make those human decisions yourself. [00:15:02][22.8]
[00:15:02] Jenny Suneson: Yeah, someone's going to have to do it either yeah, or a VA or something. So something's going to have to give regardless. [00:15:07][4.9]
[00:15:08] Caroline Hull: Yeah. And so that's kind of like one of the things that my team especially has always been good at is is copy and writing amazing show notes that can be used and used across the board for marketing, right? Like we're not just giving our clients show notes. They get so much more than that at the end of the day. And we've noticed that as well. Like we've noticed that the AI is just not even matching the level of what we can say. And so we're still yeah, we're still using transcripts and writing from scratch. Yep. [00:15:39][31.2]
[00:15:40] Jenny Suneson: Same. [00:15:40][0.0]
[00:15:41] Caroline Hull: And I don't I don't really see us changing that because I think that would take away the specialness of what we do and write. [00:15:48][7.4]
[00:15:48] Jenny Suneson: And then you kind of feel guilty too, because you're like, Well, they're paying me to do something they could do themselves. You know what I mean? [00:15:54][5.4]
[00:15:54] Caroline Hull: Yeah. Which like, brings up a whole other issue with AI and like, how we use it, right? Yeah, it's been really interesting. I love your story about the titles. I personally use ChatGPT for myself. We, I don't think we're actually using it for clients quite yet or using any AI in that capacity for clients. Yeah. But I use it for myself because I'm usually writing like marketing copy late at night when I'm watching TV and I'm tired. I actually did a course for my membership and I talked about how you can use AI to judge what you are working on. And I asked it the other day to make I think it was email subject lines for me, and they were just very corporate brow marketing. And I said to chat. I said, Hey, can you make these more feminine? And I should have screened like took a screenshot of the results because it was so hilarious. They literally put four women at the end of each sentence and unlike unlike flower emojis. And then when I gave it a big thumbs down, it read generated and it was just I mean, I don't even know. It added words like magical and feminine. And I it was just... [00:17:01][66.6]
[00:17:01] Jenny Suneson: Yeah, yeah. It's not, it's not quite there yet. For sure. For sure. And yeah, like I don't typically use that for my like the CAS Magic for my clients. It's mostly for my own show to make it easier because I still do like the my own channels and stuff. I don't have someone on my team to do that because like, none of my clients are paying for that, right? I'm right. You know, so. So I use it to make my life easier. But yeah, I don't really use anything like that except for the script. For my own clients, we do everything from like the actual transcript. And, you know, sometimes we'll use that, like to pull quotes and stuff like that. But we're not and we're not really using the titles. We'll look at the titles and be like, Well, this could kind of be if and asked me better. Yeah, sometimes even like it'll give you ten titles and like literally none of these. [00:17:45][43.3]
[00:17:46] Caroline Hull: I know I'll take like one word, I'll be like, Well that's a great word. [00:17:48][2.0]
[00:17:48] Jenny Suneson: Yeah, I like this one word. Like mastering is great. Or like, Yeah, you know, But no, everything else is not. [00:17:54][5.7]
[00:17:54] Caroline Hull: I know. Do you ever feel like the advent of AI and how it's I mean, I say the advent, but it's like been around forever. Like we've used it for transcripts and stuff for a very long time. That's. That's AI. [00:18:07][12.8]
[00:18:08] Jenny Suneson: Mm hmm. [00:18:08][0.2]
[00:18:08] Caroline Hull: But do you ever feel like it's. Not cheapening what we do, but devaluing. Do you ever feel that? [00:18:16][8.2]
[00:18:17] Jenny Suneson: Yeah. Yeah, I do. I do. Especially like when I'm like, because I'm in a ton of podcasting groups, as I'm sure you are too. Yeah. And I see people talking about all the time and people even like some podcast hosts have like incorporated it into like, I know I use Buzzsprout and they started doing like this thing called Cohost, which I haven't really looked into, but that's something that kind of helps with titles and things like that too. So it seems like a lot of like the hosting platforms are trying to jump on the bandwagon as well. And yeah, I do, I do think it it hurts and I've seen a lot of like. A lot of like in the editing specific groups. I mean, I don't just do editing. I do way more than that. But like a lot of those like adding specific groups I get those people are hurting even more than people who do full service stuff because and like with at least for me, like with the pitching and the marketing side of things, like that's definitely not there yet. And the show notes and things like that about like the audio editors. I feel like that just do audio adding are getting left in the dust because people are like, Well, I can either pay someone like $20 an episode, like I can either do it really cheap or I can do it with some type of tool like Descript. [00:19:27][70.1]
[00:19:28] Caroline Hull: So yeah, I think it's really interesting because I feel like there are kind of two camps right now. Like you have the people who are like that, they're like, Yeah, I'm going to trade in. I can do it myself in Descript. And then you have I mean, I have clients who are like, We're not going anywhere. We don't wanna do this. I don't want to do this myself. I don't have time. And, and so I think that's like kind of where we're going to have to get really good as marketers is communicating better. Yeah, the why and the value of what we do. And I think that's for everybody right now. I mean, I feel like online marketing has become so much more difficult this year. There's been like a huge shift in how people buy and how people interact. And and so, you know, we and I'll be completely honest. Like, my company fell behind. I was not prepared for this shift. [00:20:21][52.6]
[00:20:21] Jenny Suneson: Me neither. Me neither. [00:20:22][0.7]
[00:20:23] Caroline Hull: Yeah. [00:20:23][0.0]
[00:20:23] Jenny Suneson: It didn't help that I got pregnant either. And then I was like, Well, now I'm just definitely not going to be ahead of the curve. [00:20:28][4.9]
[00:20:29] Caroline Hull: See you're focusing on other things. Yeah. And so I feel like I've been playing a little bit of catch up the last couple of months, like switching my messaging, rethinking my offers. Like, how do you feel about that and like adapting your business to the changes that are going on. [00:20:44][15.1]
[00:20:45] Jenny Suneson: It's been hard and like for me, I kind of like instead of really going full force, I've kind of pulled back and looked more internally and kind of just sat with things, especially because like, you know, as we're recording this, I'm a few days away from having a newborn, so I'm not like going to go all full force efforts and like, we're like, Great, now I have all these inquiries, but I don't want to serve the room until January. So I've kind of pulled back a little bit. But I've been looking at things internally, seeing what's working there, seeing just like what looks like it's working across the board, doing like lots of research and stuff and just doing more internal stuff. And then like with my last maternity leave, I had so much clarity after I gave birth because I don't know what it was, but it's like you give birth and then all of a sudden you have like 7000 ideas. It's so true. I'm hoping. I'm hoping I have that inspiration bug again once I give birth and then, you know, I'm like, have like all these nonstop ideas and I'm like, you know, during that time or that time, whenever I get a free moment, I'm like, just writing down all the ideas and I already have a ton of ideas. Normally that's just who I am as a person. Yeah, but last time it exploded and I was like, Oh my God, I can't wait to get back to work. So I'm hoping I get that same burst of energy because, yeah, I didn't want to like, put too much out there, too much forward facing stuff because I'm like, Well, then I'm not going to be able fulfill on these promises. And I don't want, you know, like I'd much rather just kind of like sit and wait and really get really clear and get that clarity versus like throwing all this stuff at the wall and hoping it sticks and then not being able to, like, keep up with it. [00:22:21][96.5]
[00:22:22] Caroline Hull: Yeah, I think there's like a total difference between being reactionary and being strategic about your choices. And I know for me, like there was an immediate, like gut reaction a couple of months ago to just like burn my business to the ground and start over. [00:22:35][13.6]
[00:22:36] Jenny Suneson: We're having a more I had similar thoughts too. I was like, All right, so are we going to start new business here? I mean. [00:22:42][6.4]
[00:22:43] Caroline Hull: Yeah. [00:22:43][0.0]
[00:22:43] Jenny Suneson: I felt like at one point. [00:22:44][0.8]
[00:22:45] Caroline Hull: I did too. [00:22:45][0.1]
[00:22:45] Jenny Suneson: I mean, I know we've talked to and we talked about how they're like the end of the year was just like a crapshoot. Like just people were canceling like left and right, whether it was due to AI or other things. So it was tough. And at that point I was like, all right, well, so what am I going to do here? So it's been it's been rough, but I think I'm I'm having higher hopes for 20, 24 because I think we're kind of spent this whole year kind of ironing out any kinks and things like that, hopefully. And, you know, I'm looking to come back strong in the new year and really just try and, you know, make 2024 a really, really great year because this year is just not my best of business and that's okay. It's okay to not have good year like it's it's normal. You can't always be on this huge growth trajectory every single year. That's not realistic. [00:23:33][47.8]
[00:23:34] Caroline Hull: Yeah, absolutely. I agree with you 100%. [00:23:35][1.5]
[00:23:36] Caroline Hull: Are your podcast episodes set up to help you sell your membership group programs and consulting services? And I'm not talking about selling it in a sleazy way. I'm talking about creating episodes that are engaging create connection between you and your listeners and highlight your expertise to start creating episodes for sales. Get my free guide by heading to WildHomePodcasting.com/sales. [00:23:58][22.6]
[00:23:58] Caroline Hull: And it's so funny that you mention like having a baby and how that I feel like any time I had a baby in my business. My kids are older so like I had I have a 12 year old about to be ten year old and then I have a three year old. So when I had my second, there was like a huge growth in my business. And then when I had my three year old because I had her right smack dab during the pandemic. [00:24:26][27.6]
[00:24:27] Jenny Suneson: But kids around the same time. Yeah, yeah. [00:24:28][1.4]
[00:24:29] Caroline Hull: But it was that was a huge growth period for my business as well. I completely restructured my business. And so, you know, it's funny that you talk about that because that's kind of the approach I've taken my business toward the end of the year here is that like this is a moment for growth and to start feeling sorry for myself or to start feeling like A is out to get me or, you know, whatever the thing is. Like, you know, whatever negative thing is popping up in my head, which, you know, is hard to keep it based sometimes when when business feels hard. But instead of getting depressed and, you know and I did do that and feeling anxious for a while valid. [00:25:05][36.5]
[00:25:06] Jenny Suneson: That's valid to do. [00:25:07][0.8]
[00:25:07] Caroline Hull: Yeah. [00:25:07][0.0]
[00:25:08] Jenny Suneson: And since you don't like sitting it forever then. [00:25:09][1.2]
[00:25:10] Caroline Hull: Yeah, well, exactly. And I woke up one morning and I was like, You know what? Enough's enough. We've got to we've got to figure out what the next thing is and look for different opportunities and look for those gaps. You know, what have I been neglecting in my business? What have I been paying attention to? And I think that's just like a normal ebb and flow of business, like you said. And there are these moments that are going to test you. And this year was a big test. And, you know, and the test isn't over. Like I haven't released it yet. I haven't passed it. But I agree with you. I do feel like 2024 is going to be better for us. [00:25:46][36.5]
[00:25:47] Jenny Suneson: Yeah, I think because the shininess of that new not even new tool, but like the improved tool kind of wears off and people, they either stop their podcast because they couldn't commit to doing it themselves or they just they've been doing it themselves for six months and they're like, Yeah, let's not do this again. Let's let's outsource again if they can afford it. Obviously, if they don't have the funds, you can't make money pure as an error, you know. So but yeah, I think, I think people will kind of recognize like maybe this hasn't been the best quality because I've been doing it myself for all this time because I was trying to save money or whatever. [00:26:24][37.5]
[00:26:25] Caroline Hull: Yeah, yeah. So what do you think? I'd love to just talk a little bit about how we envision our industry moving forward and like what we see. If you have any predictions or forecasting for editors and producers, but podcasting as a whole, I love your thoughts. [00:26:44][19.0]
[00:26:44] Jenny Suneson: Yeah, Yeah. I mean, I think this year we've seen people get more in tune with video. Like video has not been video has been around for a long time. It's been getting more popular every single year. Of course we knew that. Right. But I think this year people have wanted to do both video and audio podcasts, and that's definitely way more expensive than just audio editing. Video is a whole nother beast. It takes, you know, you can't necessarily edit out all the times and right things like not because it looks wonky if you try like is just jump cut city So so that's something I've kind of honed in on. I do edit audio, but I'm not a video editor and I don't pretend to be. So I've had someone on my team kind of doing that for me because, you know, for clients if we need to, I think that's going to be continue to grow. People are going to want to have that, you know, omnipresent both audio and video. And it's not like watching a podcast can be kind of boring. So I feel like sometimes you'll want to get some like fun graphics or things at it. And I know for like for one of our clients that we do video for, she's an interior designer, so it's actually been really cool because people will submit in questions, emails on pictures of their space so we can put them in the video. So insert some of the video. But then she also does audio too, and she started as a podcast. And then a couple of years ago she came to us for a video. So we've been doing that for her for like two over two years now. So yeah, it's been really cool for because people are requesting it for years, like, Hey, it'd be really nice to see this. You explain it really well when you're talking about it. She she's like, Can we have some visuals, please? Yeah. So that's been really fun. And I think stuff like that, like if you have a show like that, that's definitely really helpful. If it's just like a talking head kind of interview like this, like the video's not exactly interesting per se, but it is nice to see people's faces. But you know, you're appealing to different audience, different algorithms and things like that too. And YouTube's a really great place to be because Google owns it. [00:28:45][121.5]
[00:28:46] Caroline Hull: So yeah, and they're investing a lot in podcast right now, YouTube. So yeah, they're making moves right now with podcasts, which tells you that they're about to. [00:28:55][9.0]
[00:28:56] Jenny Suneson: Yeah. And it can definitely be scary for people who are like, Well, I just want to commit to an audio podcast because they're like, Do I have to do a video? It's like, No, I have to. But yeah, you know, at the very least, I always recommend people just at least recording their video, even if they're not going to like use it for full YouTube because then you can use clips of yourself, right? You don't need to like have your whole face for 40 minutes. So talking head, but being able to pull video clips is, you know, performing better on social media than audio grams. Whereas audio grams used to be like the thing. And now I don't even like offering audio grams because you know, preferred that. [00:29:30][34.5]
[00:29:30] Caroline Hull: Well, I know, yeah, we've switched to the video clips as well. I have personally. And then we have with a couple of clients. Yeah. [00:29:36][5.5]
[00:29:36] Jenny Suneson: I like if they're open to it, I switch to it. If not, Oh yeah. Okay. We're just going to stick with like audio grams because it's like, I don't want to force you to do something you don't wanna do because then that adds resistance. But yeah. [00:29:45][9.0]
[00:29:45] Caroline Hull: Right. But it does yield amazing results, I have to say. Like my doing so good not only on Instagram but TikTok as well. And then they also posted to YouTube shorts to drag back to the episode which I also post on YouTube. A lot of posting. There's a lot of posting going on. Yeah, I completely agree with you on video and I think I think it's going to be really important. Like I was in an editing group the other day and an editor was like, I'm never going to learn video because. [00:30:12][27.0]
[00:30:13] Jenny Suneson: I think I saw that post. [00:30:14][0.8]
[00:30:15] Caroline Hull: Yeah, they were like, I'm only about audio. Like podcasts are only audio. And like, yes, I agree with you. That podcast started out as only audio and that's what made them. [00:30:25][10.2]
[00:30:25] Jenny Suneson: But that's like a sure fire way to like burn your own business down. Like you have to. Definitely. And sure, we were both resistant this year. We had some resistance to it but like that didn't serve us. [00:30:36][11.3]
[00:30:37] Caroline Hull: No, no, not at all. And it's, it's funny because, you know, after I've worked through all that resistance of not being on video of not going to use, I you know, I've been working through a lot of resistance. I mean, I'm older friends, like I've been around online business for a while. You know, I'll be turning 40 in March and I've been doing this. Gosh, Well, my daughter is going to be 13 next year. I started my first online business when I was pregnant with her. If that tells you anything. [00:31:04][26.7]
[00:31:05] Jenny Suneson: Oh wow it's been a while. [00:31:06][0.3]
[00:31:06] Caroline Hull: Yeah, and I don't know this. I feel like as I'm getting older, I'm getting a lot more stubborn. [00:31:12][5.5]
[00:31:13] Jenny Suneson: And yeah, it's. [00:31:13][0.7]
[00:31:14] Caroline Hull: A lot of growth in me this year to be like all of these things that I've been avoiding. You know what? I'm going to try them. And let me tell you, by doing it, I'm seeing momentum in my business. [00:31:24][10.1]
[00:31:24] Jenny Suneson: Yeah, I'm very I'm a stubborn person. I'm only 31. I'll be 32 in a couple months. But I'm stubborn and I found myself being really stubborn about things too. And it's like. But you can't. You can't. Because, like, if you. You're gonna get left behind in the dust. Just like that guy or girl or whoever in that group. Yeah. Like they're not going to, they're not going to continue to grow. Like. Sure. Though, you know, especially even just like people who are just only doing editing, like sure, you don't need to do like a full service thing, but if you're only doing editing, you're blocking out so many potential people from things. And like most people who are doing editing, they can definitely do other things too. Especially if you're like if you are like specializing in editing, like that was your bread and butter. Like you should like get really great at video too, because then you kind of have that double whammy. Whereas like for me, I'm like, I don't really feel like called to get really good at video. I can always bring someone on my team that is going to handle that. But like, I don't like, I can't imagine just only offering like one service because in this time people don't want just one thing. They don't want just an editor most of time. When they're starting out, yeah, a lot of people do, but when they're ready to scale, they're going to be like, I'm sorry, editor, this person offers all these things and more so like, yeah, I'll have to cut you loose. [00:32:42][77.5]
[00:32:43] Caroline Hull: Yeah, I'm so glad you said that because that was actually the next point I was going to make was about like how we have to look for opportunities. And I really do think not only are podcast editors, managers, producers going to be expected to do more than editing, but I think what's going to be expected of us a lot more is like the how to grow component, the strategy component. [00:33:04][20.7]
[00:33:04] Jenny Suneson: Yeah, yeah. It's not enough to just sit there and be like, Oh, I wrote you these really great show notes and I just did that. And I've always had a heavy focus on strategy because I know how important it is because it's like people aren't going to continue paying you thousand dollars if they're not. [00:33:19][14.4]
[00:33:19] Caroline Hull: It's not happening. Yeah, Yeah, right. [00:33:21][2.2]
[00:33:22] Jenny Suneson: Yeah. Like I'm honest with my clients, like, I'm like, you're not going to see overnight growth like that. It is what it is. Like. I have a client that's coming up on her two year anniversary in January, and like, I just looked at her stats before we hopped on this call. I'm like, Oh yeah, it's like her highest month yet. But like, that wasn't an overnight thing. Like, right, It's going to take a while and like, you have to be willing to make changes. She was willing to hop on video and use these clips and now we're seeing this traction, you know what I mean? But like my clients who are just stuck in the audio gram. It's like, well, if you're not willing to do it, I can't help you. Right. But if you are, then I'm going to do my best to help you. [00:33:56][33.6]
[00:33:56] Caroline Hull: Yeah, well, and I love that. Like you and I both offer different services for this because you do the the visibility piece. And that's something that your your agency offers, which you think is amazing. We have no desire to do that over here. But then we really dig into like the strategy and lead gen and things like that, which I know you do too with your clients, but I really feel like that's going to be what's going to make editors have longevity. And this environment is. [00:34:24][27.5]
[00:34:24] Jenny Suneson: You need something other than just editing. [00:34:25][1.0]
[00:34:26] Caroline Hull: Yes, maybe a niche. [00:34:27][1.6]
[00:34:28] Jenny Suneson: And like I said, you don't need to add everything, but you want you need add more than just, yeah, we need to have some kind of component because yeah, people, they they're not going to continue shelling over all this money if you're I mean obviously if you're just editing most of time that's going to be probably on the cheaper side compared to when people have these massive packages. But yeah yeah. I mean for me and that's like, you know, the strategy side of thing is really great and then the pitching side is really great too, because then we can double down on the strategy and get them on other shows too, which is in turn growing their show as well. So and I majored in PR in college, so I was like, I mean, why not, right? Yeah. Although podcast, we're like barely just getting started at that point. [00:35:06][38.1]
[00:35:07] Caroline Hull: It's crazy. [00:35:07][0.2]
[00:35:08] Jenny Suneson: It's still. Yeah, I was like, like, let's do this. Like, why wouldn't we? Right? So that's been really helpful too, because like, not all of our clients that work with us end up doing that piece, but the ones who do they see better growth. [00:35:19][11.1]
[00:35:20] Caroline Hull: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. We're actually in the process of like restructuring our packages to make that more of a focal point, which it always has been, but just maybe just not communicated as right. Right. And so again. [00:35:33][13.0]
[00:35:33] Jenny Suneson: Same with you. Like, yeah, I've always done it, but it's never like people have not really realized how prevalent it is until like, they've started working with us, Right? [00:35:44][10.5]
[00:35:44] Caroline Hull: Yeah. And they realize. [00:35:45][0.8]
[00:35:46] Jenny Suneson: So it's important to know off the bat. [00:35:46][0.8]
[00:35:48] Caroline Hull: Yeah, I know. It's that messaging piece again that we were talking about. [00:35:50][2.4]
[00:35:51] Jenny Suneson: Mm. [00:35:51][0.0]
[00:35:52] Caroline Hull: Well, I would love to know. So now that we've talked about the good and the bad and the ugly and also the beautiful and amazing, are you here for the long haul and podcasting? Like, are you here to see it through or what do you, what do you think. [00:36:06][14.0]
[00:36:07] Jenny Suneson: I mean, I think so. I still after this year, I still really feel committed to it and really love it. So I feel like if I can make it through this year, then I'm pretty committed and dedicated. But I'm always looking for new things. I'm very multi passionate too. So I mean, I recently started a kind of a side business because it was fun and like I felt like I needed that outlet too, because like I was getting so frustrated about all the little things like within the podcasting community and stuff like that. And I was like, Well, I need something like, that's a fun side outlet, but still, like, you know, I like to work. So I just like it's so I want it to be work related. But I started that and that's been really helpful to, to get some more creative, creative juices flowing. And then that has a podcast too. So I'm able to like. Sit down and talk to other people that aren't podcast people, but they're, you know, in the online business industry. And that's been really, really fun. And I feel like that's kind of reinvigorated me with podcasting because I was like, not that I was feeling uninspired with the podcasting industry, but I was definitely I had moments are like, What am I doing here? [00:37:10][63.2]
[00:37:11] Caroline Hull: Like, I know. [00:37:11][0.6]
[00:37:13] Jenny Suneson: It just felt and like, it seems like this year has been really interesting because like all of a sudden everyone in their mom has created programs. Obviously, I've had programs for years and like, that's the I feel like everyone's fault, like fancy only way to, like, make it work this year. Yeah, because most of the people who are just like, offering like, services, like, I know you were kind of felt like you had to do something else. You're like, I got to diversify, which is really, really important. I think diversifying is important because like, oh my gosh, like I just saw so many group programs are like, you know, low ticket offers and things like that pop up, which I think is amazing. But then I was like, I don't know, It kind of stressed me out. Seeing all these people offering that sells like for a while is like I was one of the few doing it. Now everyone's doing it, which is fine. I understand things evolve and grow, but it was just an interesting shift because it was like everyone was like, Oh, I'm a service writer, but I also have all these, like, extra offerings now. [00:38:05][52.6]
[00:38:06] Caroline Hull: Yeah, and I think that's part of the change that's happened in online business. And like, I'll be completely honest, like we've downsized the service part of my business for so we can do more. One too many type offers. And that's just been a reaction to the market. And then also for what I want my life to look like. And, you know, there's been a lot of moments this year where I have said, do I want to keep doing this? Do I want to keep doing this? I mean, I have genuinely thought about like just shutting down the business and going and getting a regular podcast about it. [00:38:39][33.4]
[00:38:40] Jenny Suneson: Yeah. [00:38:40][0.0]
[00:38:41] Caroline Hull: But at the end of the day, I love helping people so much in the way that I help people. And I love talking about podcasts and I'm still incredibly passionate about it. And I think I just had to like remember why I got started in the first place and start communicating that better. And it feels, it feels better, it feels more aligned. So I'm not going anywhere either. [00:39:04][23.2]
[00:39:05] Jenny Suneson: Yeah, I'm in a similar boat, like I'm not going and I'm planning to go anywhere. I mean, unless like overnight takes over and I can't, like, there's no way, right? But I don't, I don't think that happen, at least for another, I don't know, ten years now. [00:39:21][16.0]
[00:39:22] Caroline Hull: Everybody's going to need us still. They need us. Well, Jenny, this has been an amazing conversation and I so appreciate you coming on and just being raw and real and not being afraid to have this conversation on air with me because I think it's an important one. And I think not only does it help other podcast editors, managers, producers who are listening to this episode feel seen and like, hey, I'm we're all in the same boat. But I think it's also important for our listeners and potential clients to hear like what we've been going through this year as an industry. And so I just really appreciate your insight and I would love it if you would share all the ways that people can connect with you and hang out with you as well. [00:40:01][39.0]
[00:40:02] Jenny Suneson: Yeah. So the place I hang out the most is going to be Instagram. It can be a time suck, but I like I actually over all these social media is I prefer it. I'm like, well I can do all the things here versus yeah, TikTok is just video and you know, it's nice to have all kinds of options there. But my handle is at Jenny.Suneson. So just my first and last name, the period in between. And then my website is just savvypodcastagency.com and yeah, that's where all of our services and things are. So yeah, thank you for having me. I really enjoyed chatting with you. Has been really fun. [00:40:39][36.8]
[00:40:39] Caroline Hull: I know. And good luck with your baby. You'll have to let me know when they arrive. [00:40:43][3.5]
[00:40:44] Jenny Suneson: Yes, I'll share photos and stuff. [00:40:45][1.8]
[00:40:46] Caroline Hull: That sounds great. Thank you, Jenny. [00:40:48][1.6]
[00:40:48] Jenny Suneson: Of course. [00:40:48][0.2]
[00:40:49] Caroline Hull: I'm so glad that you could join us and kind of sit with us as we were having this conversation today. And I just wanted to take a moment and say that I wish all the best to Jenny as she has her new baby. And I really do want to make sure that we end this on a positive note, because I think both Jenny and I agree that although this year has been really hard for business for podcasting, the future is super bright and 2024 looks like it's going to be an amazing year for both of us, and not just because of the industry shifting, but because of how much we have grown as business owners and as human beings this year. You know, when times get tough, when business gets tough, it really is a test of your character and your resolve and your passion for what you do. And I know that although things have felt really hard this year, it's been such a year of growth and clarity for me. And how I want to show up in this space and how I want to help people moving forward. Because at the end of the day, that's why I'm here. I'm here to help people. I'm here to help people not only feel extremely confident in themselves and their podcast, but feel confident that the time and effort that they're spending on their podcasts is helping them grow their businesses. And so I want you to take that with you as well. If you've been feeling like this year has been hard or different, or you feel like you're having to shift and adapt, just remember that this is an experience. This is a moment in time and the future is bright. It really, really is. So I will be back with another episode and be sure to check the show notes for all the links that we mentioned today and keep on podcasting because it's really important. [00:42:41][111.3]
[00:42:41] Caroline Hull: Thank you for listening to Share, Strategize and Shine to give your own podcast some shine. Download my Free Podcast Guide to creating episodes for sales by heading to the link in the show notes. Be sure to leave a review and connect with me on Instagram for more podcast strategy insights. Until next time.
