From Hustle Culture to a More Human Approach: How to Implement a Sustainable Visibility Strategy With Mai-kee Tsang
Want to increase your visibility but not sure you have the bandwidth to do it? Podcasters, we’ve been thinking about visibility ALL wrong. It’s time to shift the perspective away from hustle culture and onto a strategy that honors both your business and your humanity.
In today’s episode, I’m chatting with sustainable visibility mentor and podcast guesting strategist, Mai-kee Tsang. Mai-kee specializes in helping entrepreneurs strike that essential balance between being seen and being attuned to their needs.
From building relationships to crafting the perfect pitch, you’ll learn how to sustainably incorporate podcast guesting into your visibility strategy without the burnout. Listen in now for Mai-kee’s expert insight!
Grab the Free Q1 Review Checklist and if you still feel like you need a little extra help planning for 2024, sign up for my Annual Podcast Planning Workshop on Dec 12th for only $25! Can’t wait to see you there!
What’s in this episode…
[03:22] Mai-kee’s definition of sustainable visibility in entrepreneurship
[06:03] Strategies for being more visible without completely burning out
[12:41] Letting go of perfectionism and giving yourself permission to tune into your needs
[16:16] Podcast guesting as a means of expanding your reach and building strong relationships
[26:08] The first steps to sustainably incorporating podcast guesting into your visibility strategy
[31:01] Why pitching podcasts without the right foundation could be your number one mistake
Are you ready to build your podcast strategy, simplify your marketing, and finally make your podcast work for you? Join the Strategic Podcast Academy, my signature group program that’ll support you with monthly training, resources, and an amazing community!
About Mai-kee Tsang:
Mai-kee Tsang (She/Her) is The Sustainable Visibility® Mentor, ICF Certified Trauma-Conscious Leadership Coach, Podcast Guesting Strategist & Public Speaker.
She helps under-recognised entrepreneurs take a safety first, strategy second approach to showing up consistently (not constantly) in their business - all without compromising their capacity, values, and bottom line in the process.
To date, she’s been featured on over 80+ podcasts (including The BS-Free Service Business Podcast, Art of Online Business, Systems Saved Me, The Copywriter Club, and more) by pitching herself onto aligned podcasts with her signature Pitch with Purpose™ Framework - which she has now taught hundreds of entrepreneurs to implement across the globe.
Connect with Mai-Kee:
Free Be Our Podcast Guest Resource
The Ultimate Podcast Guesting Workshop Series
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The Transcript for Share, Strategize, & Shine:
ep 158: It Starts With Your Mindset: How to Upgrade Your Business and Your Life With Angela Henderson
[00:00:04] Caroline Hull: Hi there and welcome to Share, Strategize and Shine. I'm your host, Caroline Hull, a podcast strategist and CEO of Wild Home Podcasting. I've built my entire career through podcasts by sharing my experience using strategic systems and shining a light on the power of podcasting. If you are looking to cultivate leads for your membership, group program, or consulting services, I'm here to help you create a holistic and integrative podcast strategy that will let your business thrive. Let's dive in. [00:00:36][32.1]
[00:00:44] Caroline Hull: Have you been wanting to become more visible, but aren't sure if you have the bandwidth to do it? If that sounds like you, then you want to listen to today's episode. I am so excited to introduce you to my friend Mai-kee Tsang. I met her a couple months ago, and we had a conversation that just really shifted my perspective on visibility and podcast casting, and so I'm so excited to share that with you. Mai-kee is the Sustainable Visibility Mentor, ICF certified Trauma Conscious Leadership coach, podcast guessing strategist, and public speaker. She helps under-recognized entrepreneurs take a safety first strategy. Second approach to showing up consistently, not constantly in their business, all without compromising their capacity, values, and bottom line in the process. And that's really what this episode is about. It is about how can I have a visibility strategy that not only works for my business, but works for me and myself and my energy and my personality, all those things. So definitely stay tuned, take some notes and be sure to connect with her after the episode. [00:01:58][74.1]
[00:01:59] Caroline Hull: Hi Mai-kee, thank you so much for coming on this show. [00:02:02][3.0]
[00:02:03] Mai-kee Tsang: You're very welcome. Thank you so, so much for having me. Everyone is super, super excited to be here. [00:02:08][4.7]
[00:02:08] Caroline Hull: Yeah, I'm really excited to talk to you today. We're going to talk about visibility and and how to do this in a way that feels good today. This is something I've been talking about a lot with my clients and my membership. I've even been going through it in my own life. And I just remember you and I had talked. It's been a little while now since we connected, and I just loved your perspective on this, and it was such a beautiful reminder as I was getting ready for this interview, and I was going back through your Instagram and your website, and I was like, oh yes, I need to remember these things for myself, you know, like, so I'm just really grateful for you to come on the show, and I would love for you to just introduce yourself and tell everyone how you help people. [00:02:52][44.2]
[00:02:53] Mai-kee Tsang: Hello lovely listeners who have yet to meet me. My name is Mai-kee Tsang. I use she her pronouns and what I do in a nutshell is I help. Integrity led entrepreneurs to really go from hidden gem to go to expert through the power of sustainable visibility, which is all about showing up in a way that is consistent, not constant. But mind you, and it's all about really honoring your capacity, boundaries, value, and not sacrificing your bottom line in the process. [00:03:21][27.7]
[00:03:22] Caroline Hull: Oh, I love that. I mean, done, we can just, you know, end it there. There's so great. I love that. So I would love to hear you talk a little bit about how you define sustainable visibility. And why do you think that's so important for business owners. [00:03:39][17.0]
[00:03:41] Mai-kee Tsang: Yeah. So the beauty of this is that the word sustainable, it really indicator is so unique to every individual. But what I personally think about, because I've been talking about this movement for three years now, at the time of this recording, I started this in 2020, and I've been talking about really about showing up in a way that really honors your humanity and really supports your business at the same time, because so much of the time it's it typically seems like a toss up between one or the other. Either look after yourself or you do your business. And I'm like, why can't we find that sweet spot that really support the two that really bring those together? And I could, you know, time and time again when I go on the podcast, speak on summits or speak at events or so on and so forth, every time I talk about this, there are so many light bulbs that go off in the room and there's so much like, oh wow, thank you so much for letting me know if this is possible, because for so long we are pushed in either direction. And so this whole conversation today, I would love for us to dive in, like how we can really make it work for our businesses as well as our humanity because life happens, seasons shift. We got to know how to adapt to it and just to be really responsive to ourselves. [00:04:52][70.8]
[00:04:52] Caroline Hull: Yeah, I think that's so important too, because I feel like online marketing has changed so much. It's a lot harder to get seen than it used to be, at least when I started. I mean, I've been doing I've been in some form of online business for over ten years now. And I know for me, you know, this year I was like, I need to make visibility a priority. And I immediately felt that push of like, I need to do so many things. And, um, and we're going to talk about in a second why that wasn't so great for me, but I immediately felt that push. And you're absolutely right. When you step back and you say, okay, I need to do this in a way that's great for my business, because yes, this can help me grow my business, but also needs to be good for me. And I think that was a turning point for me because I was trying to fill my calendar so much. And I took a step back and I said, okay, what can we do that makes sense and tear it down? So we're still getting that impact, but not feeling so crazy. And so I, I love that you say that it's it's humanity and business. Like we're bringing the two together. And I mentioned that this was important to me because I'm an introvert. [00:06:01][68.3]
[00:06:03] Mai-kee Tsang: As am I. [00:06:03][0.4]
[00:06:03] Caroline Hull: Yeah. I, you had mentioned that. I'm an INFJ, which I talk about a lot when I talk about podcasting, because I think people automatically assume podcasters are extroverts and, you know, definitely not. Okay. Right? Not me for sure. After this, I'm going to go take a nap. No, I'm kidding. So I love to start with just there. And how can we be visible without completely burning out? And maybe you can give us an idea of what that can look like. [00:06:31][27.9]
[00:06:32] Mai-kee Tsang: Yeah. Yes. So one thing comes to mind and I wouldn't necessarily call it a framework, but I get this more of a frame of mind when it comes to finding your sustainable visibility sweet spot. It's about finding the two E's. So the first E is what's effective. Meaning what do your results actually look like in your business? What do you look for to tell that a strategy is working for you? This could be reflected in your income. It could be reflected in the experience that you're giving your clients and customers, etc., etc.. And so the best thing, not the first, but like a thing to think about is the effectiveness of a particular strategy. So that's that's number one. And the second frame of mind to consider is also how energetically efficient it is for you to do that strategy. So just to give you a super metric sample right now as we're recording this is a path ability strategy. This is called podcast guesting right where you are a guest expert on someone else's podcast. And how that works for me personally, I'm an introvert, right? And so I love one on one conversations. I love deep conversations. I can't do the one to many fleeting, off the cuff kind of thing. I like planning, you and I have connected beforehand, so I know that I can trust where this conversation can go. And I also understand that this is going to be recorded. So this is a 1 to 1 when we're recording, but it has a one to many reach and it stays on the internet forever. So can you see right there. That's an example of the two E's being met is effective for my business. And I know that because my clients and customers tell me they hear me on podcasts, they hear me speaking on summits, they see me guesting somewhere. So I know those strategies are working for me and it's reflected in my income is reflected in the email subscribers, the, you know, the lifetime journey of my own customers as well, my community tend to stick around for years. Right. And at the same time, it's also efficient for me with my energy as an introvert. So I know that I can really spend my time really connecting with people, knowing that it is really planted like something that has deep roots. Yeah. You know, so that's an example, right? That the two E's, you want it to be effective for your business, and you also want it to be energetically efficient for you to sustain. [00:08:51][138.6]
[00:08:52] Caroline Hull: Yeah. So it really is about knowing yourself and not only you know what you're comfortable doing, but I like the word energy, what energetically you can handle. Because I know for me like going to an in-person conference and meeting people all day, that is like almost my worst nightmare, really. I mean. Just exhausting. And I and I will be going to conferences this year. But, you know, that's not something I want to do a ton of it. So I love that you really talk about getting to know what you're energetically comfortable with, because I think a lot of us jump into business and we see the list of all the things we should be doing without taking a minute to really think about, okay, what feels good for me, you know, just because I see somebody else doing it doesn't mean that I have to be doing it too. And I think that's a really important point you bring up, especially when we talk about the visibility piece. And I know that when I'm talking to my clients and membership people about it and about the experimentations I've been doing this year, I always say, but you have to do what works for you. But I don't think anybody ever really understands what that means exactly. [00:10:01][69.0]
[00:10:02] Mai-kee Tsang: Yet, actually, how to figure out what works for you. Right. And like this is one of the many ways to start doing that by looking at, you know, through these lenses, these frame of references of the two E's, what's effective for your business and most energetically efficient for you that you can look at through the lens of introversion? That is one lens. I also, for example, what you just said there about conferences. So I attended my first in-person conference since Covid. Right? So I was, you know, I went to conferences probably once or twice a year because I typically happen in the US that I'm based in the UK. So for me, it takes is already a lot to travel that book recombination, all of that stuff. Right. So there's a very big European. In conference. I'm actually in the UK and yes, finally, I just need to take a train. Yeah, no plane required. And the thing is, though, it was at that event when I really learned that I actually have something called sensory overload. Yes, it's very easy for me to be overstimulated. In fact, I had met someone who also learned that they had the same thing. And so what we wound up doing is we stuck in our AirPods and we turned on the sound. Is it soundproofing? I think it is, yes. Just so that we can hyper focus on each other and not be so impacted and taken aback by all the other stimuli around us, all the other conversations, the blaring music, the clinking of the glasses at the bar. You know, those so, so much. Yeah, know, it took me nearly a month to recover from that. And so for me, I know that is not a super efficient thing for me to do. So I know that I will take conferences with a pinch of salt, and it may be a little bit different if I'm if I'm a speaker because I'm speaking next year at an event. So it will be different. But as an attendee, I know that I would prefer a smaller, intimate event to do deep networking, really connecting with people. Um, and I know that big conferences just don't do it for me. [00:11:56][113.8]
[00:11:57] Caroline Hull: Yeah, I, I. Thank you for sharing that so much because I also get sensory overload. And I didn't know it was a thing until I had three kids. And I would just, you know, I would have these moments where it's like, I need you all a bit. You know, it's interesting because I think that during Covid, because we were all in our homes, a lot of us almost developed some of those things because we weren't around a lot of people. I know that my tolerance was a lot higher before the pandemic, and since the pandemic, it's been a lot harder for me to get out and be in big crowds and things like that. And so I really appreciate you sharing that. You know, I think experimentation, like you said, you have to try things before, you know, if they're going to work for you or not. [00:12:41][44.1]
[00:12:41] Caroline Hull: And then I also think, too, you know, in finding out what works for you, it's okay if you want to do it your way. So a really great example is I'm having you on my podcast right now, and everybody knows I homeschool my kids. And today I did not plan well. And they're doing piano lessons above my head as we speak. And I could have let that overwhelm me. I could have let that stress me out, but I just decided, I'm just going to sit down. I'm going to tell you what's going on. We're just going to record and have a great conversation. And so you I think letting go of that perfectionism helps a lot too, don't you think? [00:13:16][34.5]
[00:13:17] Mai-kee Tsang: 100%. And to be honest with you. I. I'm always one of those people who needs to be an embodiment of the work that I'm doing in the world. So when I talk, when I talk about sustainable visibility, that means that it's a constant permission slip. I'm giving myself to actually tune into what it is that I need. And sometimes that may mean communicating with folks if I need an extension, or if I actually have to step back from an opportunity that originally said yes to. My biggest fear is that being perceived as flaky and someone who's unreliable, like those are one of my worst nightmare is, you know, but yeah, every time the person on the other end of that communication tells me, thank you so much for letting me know. And really modeling. The fact that you know, you're doing what you need to do for yourself. Because I always propositioned or lack, or rather, I always communicate in a way that is actually for their benefit. So, for example, I recently had to say no to speaking at a summit because even though I love the people who are also speaking on it, the mission with aligned the time. The timing wasn't. Right. Where I knew I could fit it in, but it felt what I call squishy, which is my filter phrase that I that I tell myself about, that my team came up with in the past. They said if it feels too squishy, as in like things are all squished together, then you know that you can't really do it for justice. And so I said to that person, thank you so, so much for the invitation. I love what you're doing x, y, z. You know, just really like showing my appreciation. And I said, well, I would really love to I would have to respectfully decline this opportunity and take a step back, because I believe that everybody who you have speaking on your summit needs to really show up for you and your community. And I know that I wouldn't be in a position to do that for this particular timeline. I'm happy to send you a referral or recommendation, but I just want to let you know that I would love to you, but I know I can't do my best for you right now. Yeah, like a sad as I am. Yeah. That you're not speaking. Thank you so much for saying that. Right. Yeah. [00:15:23][125.7]
[00:15:24] Caroline Hull: No, because that's absolutely true. Like, you don't want to show up to any of these opportunities or collaborations when you're not at your best. And, you know, again, that goes back to what we were saying about honoring and knowing thyself. And and I so absolutely love that. I think that is such a great story to share, because I know that especially towards the end of the year here, as I've been packing things in, I've seen opportunities and I've been like, oh, I should do that. And I actually declined one yesterday as well because it was just too much and it felt like too much. And I was proud of myself for doing that. And so. Yeah. Good on you. Yeah. I'm growing up so fast. Yeah. You grow up. Hands on. Yeah, right. So I think there's important those are important things to share because, you know, it's not about cramming in the schedule so much. So you're just everywhere all the time. You know, it really is about picking and choosing what works for you. I absolutely love that. [00:16:15][51.6]
[00:16:16] Caroline Hull: So you mentioned it a little while ago when we were talking about this, a conversation we're having right now. But I would love for you to share a little bit more about podcast guesting specifically because this is something you talk about a lot. And initially when we spoke, this is what we really connected on. Was that guesting on podcasts and having that be a part of your visibility strategy. So I love for you to just start out with, you know, why do you think podcast guesting is such a great way to increase visibility? [00:16:44][27.4]
[00:16:46] Mai-kee Tsang: Um. You know, I was thinking about this earlier, and there are so many ways that I can go about this, but is it really goes back to what I said earlier, actually, why it kind of works for me. But even taking that apart and really just honing in on the fact that it's one recorded conversation that has the potential to reach so many people long after the recording, and that's the beauty of it. If you Google my name, there are like at least ten pages of interviews because I've been doing interviews since 2019. But by the way, and there are some things that, uh, well, that pretty much all still out there. And so even when I'm fast asleep there are people listening to this interview somewhere across the world. And so for those of you who are interested in podcast guesting. It's really a medium for you to explore and experiment with if your way of communicating your preference is verbal processing. Because let's be honest, not all visibility strategies work for every single person, and it really boils down to your strengths. So because podcasts are typically a is an audio platform like the audio. Right. Right. So you would need to know how to articulate yourself. Mhm. You would need to know how to tell stories in a sustained way and really have a kind of back and forth conversational experience with the host on the other end of the microphone. And so if that is something that really interested interest you, like having deep conversations, you like talking about the work you do. You like sharing the not so great stories, you know? Yeah. Sometimes we like hearing about the more the failures than the successes. [00:18:27][101.8]
[00:18:28] Caroline Hull: Yeah. Right. We do. Because it makes us feel seen, like, oh, they get it too. [00:18:32][4.1]
[00:18:33] Mai-kee Tsang: Yeah, it's more human. Right. And so podcast getting could be a really, really great route to go down because again, it has the potential to reach so many people long after your interview is recorded. But it's not just that. And I always tell this to my, my clients, my my students inside of my workshops and programs that the goal isn't actually the interview, as one might think. Right. And it's actually, in my opinion and in my experience and with conversing with dozens and dozens of podcast is the true power of this strategy is very much the relationships you get to build. Oh. [00:19:12][38.9]
[00:19:13] Caroline Hull: Yes. Yes. I was so hoping you would say that. You did, you did. Because, you know, I think. I so for a long time I didn't do interviews on my podcast because I had a baby during the pandemic. It just it didn't make a lot of sense to have to be trying to do interviews. It felt like it was not going to work out. And it was funny because this year I added the interviews back in, and what I really learned from that is what I was missing from not having the interviews. While the solo episodes serve their own really important purpose, but what I was missing from not having the interviews were those connections and those relationships. And since I've started doing them again, it has just brought so much, not only to my business, but to my life. Like to me, as a person who works from home and never steps outside, you know my door hardly ever. And so I'm such a homebody. Oh, I'm. I'm the worst. Let me do I have to go somewhere? But yeah, that's been such a really important piece. And it's incredible the opportunities that have come from not just having people on my podcast, but also being on other people's podcast as well. And I've made so many friends, you know, I think we don't think about that enough is being a benefit of being on podcast and guesting. [00:20:26][72.8]
[00:20:28] Mai-kee Tsang: Yes, because I won't lie, there was a time like 2019 was when I really got my start, and it's because my mentors really inspired me to guest on my podcast. So what I did was I challenged myself to personally pitch 101 podcasters in 30 days. When I say I say this as a cautionary tale, it's not a tale of inspiration by the way, don't do that. Yeah, yeah, don't do that. I'm already done. If you don't do that. And I actually wound up getting a 33% booking rate, which is unheard of in the, in the PR world. Yeah. But here's what I really learned from that is you can tell when a conversation is very transactional, when it's very surface level. And I'm not saying that the conversations were, but I noticed when I started talking about what I did back then, a lot of people like, oh, I'm going to I want to get on 100 podcast and edit it up. And I'm like, okay, let's, let's take a step back. And I ask them, but do you have it in your content calendar to actually promote all of these episodes? And they're like, oh no, you know, just I'll just get on them and go, no, no, no, no, no, no, let's not do that because you're missing the point. Because if we think that the only benefit is about the potential reach, then you are really, really missing the mark because the relationships you develop with the host are ones that can really stick with you for the for the lifetime of your business. You can find like you won't be besties with every single person. Let's let's be real. Right? But some of those people can be your best besties. Or if not, they could be an affiliate partner for you. They may open the back door for an opportunity that otherwise would not have been available to you. Yeah, because you didn't have that conversation. You didn't earn that trust, right? And I'll tell you, there are so many podcasters that I that I met back then that I still collaborate with today because we kept in touch. Right? And again, not BS bestie, but we still have aligned interests. We have had aligned audiences aligned offers, so it makes sense to continue supporting each other and that, my friend can be so, so much more fruitful than if we simply went on as many podcasts as possible, kind of reaching some people on the surface level. Focus on depth over breadth. [00:22:45][137.4]
[00:22:46] Caroline Hull: I love that so much, you know? And that really speaks to that humanity piece you were talking about. And I think sometimes, I mean, you can always tell when somebody is really doing a push to be on podcasts. I don't know if you've ever noticed this. Like you'll be listening to your handful of podcasts in the same person as a guest, like week after week you're doing. Yeah, yeah. And you're like, oh, I guess they did a lot of pitches this month, you know, or something. But you're absolutely right, because I know that as a host, when I have people on my podcast and all they do is interview and then that's it, and I never hear from them again. I know for me, that feels like a letdown because, you know, for me, it's really letting you into my space, sharing my audience with you. But also I want to connect. You know, I invited you on because I want to get to know you and what you do and and share that with my people. And so I really love that you brought that up, because I think it's a really big missed opportunity. When you just go on the podcast and you drop off the face of the planet, you know, I always tell, tell people after my interviews, I'm like, let's stay in touch. And I like I actually mean that because. You know. I probably learned something from our interview and, you know, and I've just I like I posted on Instagram Stories the other day, I met so many amazing people doing podcast guesting and having people on my podcast. And so it really is this great connector that I love. I love talking about. So thanks for bringing all that up, because that's something that's so important to me. [00:24:20][94.0]
[00:24:21] Mai-kee Tsang: Yeah, I mean, I'm a host myself and I know what that's like feeling I kind of think of a used tissue. [00:24:27][5.9]
[00:24:28] Caroline Hull: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:24:29][1.0]
[00:24:29] Mai-kee Tsang: Just kind of throw it away after it has been used. And that is why there is a there's a phrase that I teach in my workshop series. I say, don't ghost the host. [00:24:37][7.6]
[00:24:38] Caroline Hull: Oh yeah. Oh that's good. [00:24:39][1.0]
[00:24:39] Mai-kee Tsang: Yeah. Really. Come on. That, that's a good old rhyme in that. [00:24:42][3.0]
[00:24:43] Caroline Hull: Yeah, I like that a lot. Don't ghost host now. [00:24:45][2.0]
[00:24:46] Mai-kee Tsang: But I love that you mean that. And you're also someone who really values the connections that you have. Because especially again, as introvert, they're us. So we're a lot more selective of who we let into our circles, be it personal, professional or when it's over. And so because of that, we really mean it. We even when we are speaking with people and we're connecting with people. And again, we don't have to be besties with every single person because that's near impossible and incredibly overwhelming. But when we mean it, we mean it. And so podcast casting is really for those who care about those relationships, who love conversations and are really, you know, happy and great to express themselves through this medium. [00:25:28][42.1]
[00:25:29] Caroline Hull: Yeah. Uh, just sometimes we just need a little bit of help and a little bit of feedback on what we're working on. And that same thing applies to our podcast. I am so excited to now be offering Podcast Voxer Coaching Days. These are days where you get to actually rent my brain and start moving forward on your podcast. Just think of me as a podcast coach in your pocket for the day, to book your Podcast Voxer Coaching Day and find out a little bit more about how they work, head to WildHomePodcasting.com/Voxer. [00:26:03][33.5]
[00:26:08] Caroline Hull: Okay, so everybody is listening and they're like, okay, you've convinced me. I would like to start being a guest on podcasts. What would you suggest the first steps be for somebody who wants to maybe start having a visibility plan or a visibility strategy, where would you tell them to start? [00:26:24][16.4]
[00:26:25] Mai-kee Tsang: Do you mean specifically for podcast getting or visibility overall? Because I'm like, oh, that's. I know I didn't go before here. [00:26:31][6.2]
[00:26:32] Caroline Hull: Okay. You know what. Let's do podcast guesting today specifically. And then we're going to tell everybody how to connect with you so they can work on the rest of it. [00:26:39][7.7]
[00:26:41] Mai-kee Tsang: All right. Cool. All right. So if you are interested in podcast guesting there is a resource that you know is totally free and so valuable. And I'm not just saying that, by the way, someone has literally called it gold, so I wish I had that off to it. But if you are interested in podcast guesting, the first thing you really need to think about is your goal. How are you going to measure it through what is like hard and soft metrics? What do you need to see and how do you need to feel in order for you to know that this is working right? So when we talked earlier about the two E's, when we talked about what's effective and what's energetically efficient, it's very much along the same lines. What do you need to see that's working in your business? And what do you need to feel that is working for you as a human right. So you really need to define that first. It doesn't need to be like a super hard and fast definition or anything, but it's just for you to know that you is worth you doing. Right. So that's one thing. [00:27:34][53.8]
[00:27:35] Caroline Hull: Yeah. Sorry. Yep. No, I was just going to say that's really great because then you can measure everything else you decide to do back on that. And so if you have that kind of solidified and I think, you know, even as somebody who like, I just participated in a bundle this, this last week and I have another one coming up and I have another one because I had a specific goal in mind. But it's interesting because as I've been doing these, I'm like, oh, maybe I shouldn't schedule them so close to each other next time. Like, I wasn't thinking when I said, I understand that. I understand that again, going back to that energy. And so it's really great because now I can say, okay, well, did this align? Probably not exactly. So next time I know how to do that better. So I love that you said like set those goals and understand what you want out of it for yourself and for your business, because I think that'll be really important as people move forward. [00:28:22][47.4]
[00:28:24] Mai-kee Tsang: Mhm. Yes. And so to add on to that what your goals are, you also need to know like what do you, what do you want people to do after they've listened to you. Like do you actually want them to buy an offer. Do you want them to. Get onto email list to book, console, whatever it is you need to understand and reverse engineer that listener's journey. So for example. If I go onto a podcast to talk about podcast guesting, the end in mind for me is I would love it if they bought my Ultimate Podcast Guesting Workshop Series, because that is the a-to-z step by step how to get on podcasts on your own terms, right, without sending a ton of pitches. So I know that is like far in the future. So what I need to talk about and like this is super massive, by the way, because it's exactly, you know, where this interview exactly. It may go. For a couple of people, right? So that's my end goal. So I'm like, okay, in order for people to know about that offer, what free resource a lead magnet would I need to offer an end of an interview in order to eventually come onto my email list to learn about that offer? Mhm. Right. And so that's what the resources I'm going to share with you today. And then when I think about okay that's my call to action. But what do I even need to talk about in the interview. Right. For this call to action to even make sense for it to be a natural next step for them? Yeah, I. Right. So we're going in. Going back what? We're engineering the author. What is it that I want people to buy eventually. What is the call to action I need to offer at the end that's going to lead to that? Or do I need to talk about that's going to lead to that call to action and of course, what you need to do. Because ultimately, podcast guessing is all about providing value to the host audience, right? So I'm like, okay, what do I need to talk about? That is not only great for me and the call to action about your potential offer that people can buy, what's really going to provide a ton of value for the host in front of me right now, right? So I need to find the gap that is not quite filled yet in the conversations that I've been had so far. Right. So those are the stages of, you know, the chain of thought. It's a listeners journey. Yeah. Engineered in order to get what you guys want like is a win win win situation. That's what it's all about. [00:30:35][131.4]
[00:30:35] Caroline Hull: Yeah. And oh my gosh it's so we are on the same page here because this is what I talk about with when you have your own podcast, you go through a very similar process for having a strategy for how you're going to convert your listeners to leads. And so it really is all related. You know, you talked about it is the lead magnet. What does that lead into? You talked about content. I'm just sitting here like shaking my head. Yes, yes, I love all of that. [00:31:00][24.9]
[00:31:01] Caroline Hull: And I think I love to that you didn't start out with start researching podcast to pitch on because. [00:31:06][5.5]
[00:31:07] Mai-kee Tsang: Oh no no no no. [00:31:07][0.7]
[00:31:08] Caroline Hull: No no. Right. You have to have all this other foundational stuff in place first. And so I think that if there is any big takeaway from this interview today, I really want people to take away what you've said about that foundation, knowing thyself, knowing what your goals are, and then how is that going to translate into what you do for your visibility strategy? [00:31:27][19.5]
[00:31:28] Mai-kee Tsang: So yes, 100%, and I'm glad that you mentioned that the on glad you didn't go straight into the research thing because here that is the number one mistake that I always see people go straight to the pitching because they want the interviews to happen sooner. Yeah, results to happen sooner. I 100% get that. But I always ask myself if I had the opportunity of a lifetime tomorrow to be, I don't know, featured on Forbes or something. Would my business be able to handle the potential volume that comes my way? Yes, yes or no? And if and if it's not a full body, yes. And you know that there are something that's not quite connected, it's not quite working, or it's not up to the scratch that you want it to be, for it to be truly ready to receive. And that's the state you want to be in before you even start researching, before you start pitching, because you don't want all of that effort to go to waste. Because here's the biggest problem I see in pitching, right? And again, I'm a host. I happen the host of The Client Ripple's podcast since 2019. So yeah, I know I'm not like the longest standing podcast if it's not on point. The point is, I've seen a lot of not so wonderful pitches along the way. I even have a series that's called Pitches That Piss Off Podcasters, right? Yeah. And there's a reason for that. And I and we, you know, talk about crappy pitches and what not to do. I hear the thing where earlier, when we're talking about how this is all about relationship building, about earning trust and that collaboration mindset. Yeah. If a, if a pitch isn't well-researched, if it's not well written, that feels personal life, that feels relevant, you're going to completely miss the mark. And you could burn the bridge before that, right. And potential to build it. And that is what makes it so transactional. If you're only focusing on how many podcasts you're getting on because it treats every podcaster not like a person, you're treating them like a platform. But there's a person behind every microphone that you speak to, and so treat them like a human unit. [00:33:20][111.5]
[00:33:20] Caroline Hull: Yeah. Oh my gosh, we could do a whole nother episode on pitching. Oh yeah, we can. I mean. I have so many stories and I'll just share a funny one real quick because I think they're fun. But I have a a sweet little dog groomer who keeps pitching my podcast. Oh, and I'm just like, guys, did you. Did you look at it? You can listen. And I mean, and it's a very it's a very well thought out pitch. They, they pitch some topics on dog grooming, but they didn't bother to look at the podcast they were pitching to. And you know, and again that's waste. That's a waste opportunity. It's a waste of money. I'm sure they're paying somebody to do that for them. So. [00:33:58][37.7]
[00:33:58] Mai-kee Tsang: Oh that's, oh that's the worst. When you know you know the paying I know that that way. [00:34:02][4.0]
[00:34:03] Caroline Hull: Then every once in a while I'll reply and be like, hey. Listen, I'm a podcaster. I've been doing this for a very long time. Let me just give you a little tip here, you know? But yeah, I love that. Uh, I love having pitch conversations with people because I think you're absolutely right. If it's not done correctly, it can totally burn a bridge. And so, again, having those foundational pieces in place so, so important before you go out and pitch. Oh my gosh. [00:34:32][28.9]
[00:34:32] Mai-kee Tsang: You know, you know I know I know that we're going to wrap up in just a bit. But I just want to say right here and now that what you just shared about, you know, that that person is paying an agency or a service to. Do this for them and they're really missing the mark. That is what really lights the fire under me to teach people how to do it for themselves. Because even if they outsource it later, they're totally fine. But you need to understand what really goes into a yes for the pitch. I teach seven elements in my workshop series, and the thing is, I do that because it really, truly breaks my heart knowing that this is happening. They're paying hundreds, if not thousands of right every single month and they're getting pitch like this. It really actually hurts me. And I even had to call out an agency, or rather like let my mentor know that the agency that was representing her was really doing a crappy job because I was like, look, I will show you the pitch and you are just stacked along everyone else in this pitch. Yeah. Ten bios. That's it. And I and I know how much she was paying. She was paying like 15 grand a month now, and I was I was mortified. I was like, no, you're not paying that anymore. Okay. And I'm going to tell you more. Yeah. So is is awful knowing what can happen. [00:35:45][73.1]
[00:35:46] Caroline Hull: Yeah, it really is and I love it. You know, you talk about empowering people because, you know, I don't do my pitching. I have somebody on my team who does it. And, you know, it wasn't it hasn't always been as great as it it is now, you know, and it's something that we've had to work at. And it's something we've tweaked and we've analyzed and we've really thought about. And it's an empowering feeling to know that someday, if I do go to an agency, I know exactly I'm going to be able to have a conversation with them and know exactly what I want out of that relationship. And so I do think, like, you know, we talk a lot about outsourcing, but I love that you talk about like, it's not just about outsourcing, but also being empowered and and being able to do it yourself, I think is really important. [00:36:32][45.9]
[00:36:32] Mai-kee Tsang: So yeah, knowing the foundations of how it works and like you said, being able to have a constructive conversation with someone to really understand their process and how you will be represented on the other end. Yes. It's so important that transparency right there. And that's also why I train teams. I don't just train individuals, but I train teams like how to actually yeah, how to get the help their VA is to really represent them in their pitches. So it feels really like it feels nicer when it's in-house as well. [00:37:00][28.1]
[00:37:01] Caroline Hull: Yeah, it does. [00:37:01][0.4]
[00:37:02] Mai-kee Tsang: On your own team. It's it's more the connection. But anyhow um, but yeah, that that's a huge fire under me why I teach. Yeah. Because I, I'm a small business owner. I have seasons where I'm a solopreneur. I have seasons when I have a team. Yeah. And the thing is, I love knowing that I have the skill set to do it myself. And I love teaching people how to do it themselves and to hear their stories of how empowered they feel to know that they don't. They have to outsource unless they want to. Right. And that feels really, really good. [00:37:30][28.5]
[00:37:31] Caroline Hull: I love that. So that brings me to my next question, which I would just love for you to share. You mentioned you have a free resource, but I would love for you to talk about your workshop series, because I think what you bring to, you know, PR visibility was just when we first spoke. It was such a unique perspective and it helped me shift my perspective. Just that one conversation that we had. And I just think I'm so supportive of what your what you're doing because it's so needed in this, this online business world of hustle, hustle, get in front of everybody. You know, sometimes it can feel that way. And so I just thank you so much for coming on this show and yeah, share share all your things because I want everybody to go click the links which will all be in the show notes. [00:38:17][46.2]
[00:38:18] Mai-kee Tsang: Thank you so much that that really means the world. And for those of you who are listening, if you are intrigued or that you've been interested in podcasting but you just didn't know where to start. I have a basically an all in one solution. So I have two things to share with you today. Number one is my Ultimate Podcast Guesting Workshop series. And yes, that's the actual name. Right? And this is for you. If you really want to learn how to guest on a lined podcast to grow your business without having to send a ton of pitches. So earlier I gave you pretty much a bit of a sneak peek, right about the reverse engineering of the listeners journey. But I'm also going to share with you how to find your unique topics of influence when you actually start pitching people. I will share with you how to research. I have like at least I think, 3 to 5 different ways of how you start researching, how to track, how to write your pictures with plenty of examples of good and bad ones. But not only that, what actually you need to do in order to prepare yourself for the actual interview. I'm not leaving you at the pitch stage. I love that from A-to-z how to do it step by step. So if you're interested in the A to Z kind of support, then that is a on demand workshop series for you. And actually, at the time this recording I just finished launching and now it's on demand as well as my new private podcast. It's called Inside the Invite, and that is for you if you want to know how to get invited on to a podcast. And the two actually really go hand-in-hand together, because a lot of the insights from these interviews where I'm asking podcasters, what do you do when you invite people like, what do you look for? And how can we proactively position ourselves for invitations? So whether you want to pitch or whether you want to be invited, I have both solutions for you and I'll share those links with Caroline afterwards as well. But yeah, those are two ways I can 100% help you on the podcast. [00:40:11][113.0]
[00:40:12] Caroline Hull: Oh, love that so much. I literally opened your website and I was like, I gotta go check out that private podcast. So thank you so much for coming on and just sharing, uh, so candidly, what, you know, podcasting is so special to me, and I love being able to talk about it in this way. So just thank you so much. [00:40:27][15.1]
[00:40:28] Mai-kee Tsang: Thank you too. And would you like that free resource as well? [00:40:30][2.2]
[00:40:31] Caroline Hull: Oh yes. Oh we forgot the free resource. Yes yes. What's that one. What's that one. [00:40:35][4.3]
[00:40:36] Mai-kee Tsang: Yeah. So this one is $0. It's called be our podcast guest. And this is I asked 25 podcasters what do they look for in pitches they love receiving genius. And they get they give you one out of the box piece of advice. So you're hearing directly from podcasters mouth what it is that they look for. You are very welcome. I've curated it in that document for you. [00:40:59][22.6]
[00:40:59] Caroline Hull: Amazing. And then also just share your website real quick and your and how to connect with you. [00:41:03][4.3]
[00:41:04] Mai-kee Tsang: You can find me at maikeetsang.com That's I keep saying and the main I would recommend connecting with me on Instagram. I have a nine grid which means that you won't see updates on my feed. You will see updates in my stories and I am the one in my DMs. So do send me a DM. [00:41:22][18.0]
[00:41:23] Caroline Hull: I love that so much! Okay, now I'm saying bye. And thank you so much. Thank you so much. This is so fun. [00:41:29][6.8]
[00:41:30] Mai-kee Tsang: Thank you. [00:41:31][0.3]
[00:41:32] Caroline Hull: So before I let you go from this episode, I just wanted to take a quick note and say that I will never share anything on here that I do not wholeheartedly endorse. And if you are looking for help with podcast guesting, please go check out her resources and her workshop series. I really, really believe in her approach and it's something that I have tried to emulate myself in how I show up and how I am visible in my own business. And so definitely if this is something you're struggling with, I really encourage you to go connect with Mai-kee and I will be back soon with another episode. [00:42:08][36.5]
[00:42:11] Caroline Hull: Thank you for listening to Share, Strategize and Shine to give your own podcast some shine, download my free Podcast Guide to Creating Episodes for Sales by heading to the link in the show notes. Be sure to leave a review and connect with me on Instagram for more podcast strategy insights. Until next time.
